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Original Message
Forum General 
Topic You People 
Author Agnostic 
Date Created 27/12/2003 01:02:59 
Message You people, not meaning Muslims, but rather the people who access this site, are psychopaths. Just reading the comments you have made is disgusting. No God would ever support you. 
Topic Re: You People 
Author lea 786 
Date Created 05/03/2004 00:02:35 
Message more like the comments you have made all over this site under different names, one day you will be punished and one day you will see, keep sinning and may you get the best reward available to your kind! 
Topic Re: You People 
Author noura miraby 
Date Created 05/03/2004 12:51:04 
Message Thank you ...May God Bless you... 
Topic Re: You People 
Author general surfer 
Date Created 11/05/2004 23:58:38 
Message I think that the correct version of your unnecessary shouting is as below. Perhaps you were in a hurry. lolz

"We people. (not meaning Muslims) but the others who access this site, are psychopaths. Just reading the comments you have made is disgusting. ALLAAH will never support you." 
Topic Re: You People 
Author liloldme 
Date Created 30/05/2004 03:57:33 
Message Peace
slow down!what's with all this mud-slinging? ah! now i see why there is so much chaos in the world. hmm, Agnostic has every right to feel sick of the contents of this site... but must give the reason as well. might be that Agnostic is justified in feeling so, i mean, if Agnostic browses to see what's going on and all that is there is a lot of abuse between the participants of the forum, then that is somewhat disgusting. anyways, try to ignore that sort of childishness, and Agnostic , please refrain from calling others by name at least, even if that IS how you feel. 'coz hatred only breeds hatred. Ummm, and another thing; it is for God alone to support whoever God likes. Peace? :)  
Topic Re: You People 
Author liloldme 
Date Created 30/05/2004 03:57:33 
Message Peace
slow down!what's with all this mud-slinging? ah! now i see why there is so much chaos in the world. hmm, Agnostic has every right to feel sick of the contents of this site... but must give the reason as well. might be that Agnostic is justified in feeling so, i mean, if Agnostic browses to see what's going on and all that is there is a lot of abuse between the participants of the forum, then that is somewhat disgusting. anyways, try to ignore that sort of childishness, and Agnostic , please refrain from calling others by name at least, even if that IS how you feel. 'coz hatred only breeds hatred. Peace? :)  
Topic Re: You People 
Author FIght Yourselves 
Date Created 26/02/2005 12:40:11 


And by the way, for those of you interested, some of us do our homework too. Want to know the teachings of Islam?

Here's little slice:

In Islam, according to the koran, hadiths etc, there is nothing like equal rights for the women, death is pronounced for the Jews, buddists, atheist, Christians etc and they are refered to as infidels. Also anybody from other religion is not accepted as being equal to a muslim in Islam etc. All these I presume contradicts most culture.

What the Koran says about:


Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”

Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”

Ishaq:552 “The Quraysh had put pictures in the Ka’aba including two of Jesus and one of Mary. Muhammad ordered that the pictures should be erased.”

Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”

Qur’an 5:35 “Believers, fear Allah and seek the way to approach Him, striving hard, fighting Jihad with all your might in His Cause that you may be successful. As for the disbelievers [previously defined as Christians], if they had everything on earth, two times over, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Doom, it would never be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful torment. They will desire to get out of the fire, but they shall not be released from it. They shall have an everlasting torture.”

Qur’an 3:61 “If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them.”

Qur’an 3:118 “O you who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, and Christians). They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin. Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths. What their hearts conceal is far worse. When they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say unto them: ‘Perish in your rage.’”

Qur’an 4:48 “Allah forgives not that partners [Christ as God] should be set up with Him; but He forgives anything else, to whom He please; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous.”

Qur’an 4:54 “Are they jealous and envious what Allah has given them of his bounty? But We had already given the house of Abraham the Book, and conferred upon them a grand kingdom. Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him. And Hell is sufficient for their burning. Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire. As often as their skin is burnt and singed, roasted through, We shall change it for fresh skin, so that they may go on tasting the torment.”


Ishaq:243 “I heard the Apostle say: ‘Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!’ He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks…. Allah sent down concerning him: ‘To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom.” [9:61] “Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, ‘If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey’s.’”

Ishaq:144 “A rock was put on a slave’s chest. When Abu Bakr complained, they said, ‘You are the one who corrupted him, so save him from his plight.’ I will do so,’ said Bakr. ‘I have a black slave, tougher and stronger than Bilal, who is a heathen. I will exchange him. The transaction was carried out.”

Tabari II:11 “Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African’s color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks.”

Tabari II:21 “Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham’s descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem’s, the latter would enslave them.”

Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. WE FIGHT PEOPLE UNTIL THEY BELIEVE IN ALLAH. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah’s Cause. KILLING HIM IS A SMALL MATTER TO US.”

Bukhari:V4B52N137 “The Prophet said, ‘Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.’”


Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to BEAT THEM, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like DOMESTIC ANIMALS AND THEY POSSESS NOTHING THEMSELVES. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”

Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world MENSTRUATE AND ARE STUPID.”

Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”

Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”

Ishaq:584 “Tell the men with you who have wives: NEVER TRUST A WOMAN.”

Ishaq:469 “The Apostle said, ‘Every wailing woman lies except those who wept for Sa’d.’”

Tabari VIII:62/Ishaq:496 “Ali [Muhammad’s adopted son, son-in-law, and future Caliph] said, ‘Prophet, women are plentiful. You can get a replacement, easily changing one for another.’”

Qur’an 24:1 “(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”

Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”

Bukhari:V4B52N50 “The Prophet said, ‘A single endeavor of fighting in Allah’s Cause is better than the world and whatever is in it.’”

Qur’an 9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”

Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”

Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”

Qur’an 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”

Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”

Qur’an 8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”

Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”

Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”

Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”

Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an 8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”

Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”

Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”

Ishaq:530 “Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends.”


Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.”

Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.”

Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.”

Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.”

Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.”

Tabari IX:42 “We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.”

Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’”

Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Qur’an 7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.”

Ishaq:510 “When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.”

Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, ‘Allahu-Akbar!’ [Allah is Greatest] Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a hostile nation to fight, then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.’ Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives.”

Bukhari:V9B87N127 “The Prophet said, ‘I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror.’”

Ishaq:517 “Khaybar was stormed by the Apostle’s squadron, fully armed, powerful and strong. It brought certain humiliation with Muslim men in its midst. We attacked and they met their doom. Muhammad conquered the Jews in fighting that day as they opened their eyes to our dust.”

Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Tabari VIII:143 “In this year a twenty-four man raiding party led by Shuja went to the Banu Amir. He launched a raid on them and took camels and sheep. The shares of booty came to fifteen camels for each man. Also a raid led by Amr went to Dhat. He set out with fifteen men. He encountered a large force whom he summoned to Islam. They refused to respond so he killed all of them.”

Bukhari:V4B52N256 “The Prophet passed by and was asked whether it was permissible to attack infidels at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, ‘Their women and children are from them.’”

Ishaq:580 “Our strong warriors obey his orders to the letter. By us Allah’s religion is undeniably strong. You would think when our horses gallop with bits in their mouths that the sounds of demons are among them. The day we trod down the unbelievers there was no deviation or turning from the Apostle’s order. During the battle the people heard our exhortations to fight and the smashing of skulls by swords that sent heads flying. We severed necks with a warrior’s blow. Often we have left the slain cut to pieces and a widow crying alas over her mutilated husband. ’Tis Allah, not man we seek to please.”

Want me to go on?

Topic Re: You People 
Author steve 
Date Created 29/07/2005 16:48:21 
Message Psycopaths? more like suicide bombers (lemmings...) 
Topic Re: You People 
Author Naufal Zamir 
Date Created 29/07/2005 23:34:57 
Message I think Agnostic has a valid point.

This is my first day and I have one simple advice. I do not wish to return here.


There is a lot of misunderstanding about Islam. If people really sincerely wish to know what is Islam they have to have an open mind and try to search the TRUTH.

Islam cannot be learnt from Orientalists. Neither can Quran be understood by simple reading of it. There is a method to understand Quran. A little learning becomes dangerous when it comes to self-interpretation of Quran.

I think rather than getting bogged down with details or Islam which may or may not have different opinions, which neither proves or disproves anything - one who really wants to know Islam should ask -

Does God/Allah exist?
If God exist then is it rationally possible to believe the three in one stereo player theory or monotheism is the only plausible understanding?
If Allah/God exist then has He communicated to us?
If He has then which one is the authentic communication?
Are there Proofs that Quran is the word of Allah?
What are the proofs that Quran is still intact and preserved they way it was sent by Allah?

Looking at this website may help - www.harunyahya.com, there are lot more similar... just giving an example.

These are the basic questions rather than taking extracts from Quran without knowing or understanding the reason for revealation and history of that extract.

If the whole idea of having this group is hypocritical i.e. to allow Non-Muslims to denounce Islam - then May Allah help the owner of this website to become enlightened from ignorance. 
Topic Re: You People 
Author Jackie 
Date Created 03/08/2005 06:01:27 
Message Isn`t all this religious Love, Peace and cross-denomination extending of hands wonderful?
What always strikes me as amazing, is that when someone questions someones book of holy hooey, someone pipes up and says ,"No, no, no,Thats not what it means". "You need to have studied it under the light of a blue moon in the August of a leap year while wearing spotted boxer shorts ,rakishly over your left eye". "This is the only way true understanding of the sacred texts can be gained".
Please,correct me if I`m wrong, however, aren`t there wahabi moslems,shi`ite moslems and sunni moslems? There are also catholic, presbyterian and baptist christians. You have ashkenazi, sephardic and mizrahi jews. Even you god botherers can`t agree with the exact meaning of things!
Where all of you make your mistakes, is that you are trying to read some divine meaning into things that were written by a bunch of iron age control freaks with the purpose`s of controling the masses and attain self -agrandizement!
Now, while you can forgive people who needed reasons for why the sun appeared to be not as effective for half a year , why the crops failed or the non-appearance of Santa. We now know that the Sun doesn`t set in a muddy puddle, that Ants can`t talk, that Bat`s aren`t birds and the meek, to this pont in time, haven`t inherited the earth.
What Is horribly fascinating is that most of the people on this forum still believe.....amazing!
Still, we live in hope, 600 years ago most of the world believed the earth was flat. Of course, were to sophisticated to believe that now, aren`t we? HA! 
Topic Re: You People 
Author Free Way 
Date Created 06/08/2005 21:39:40 
Message You are quite right Jackie in that people misinterpret Scripture (any religious books for that matter) and have different views. Take for instance the famous saying that “money is the root of all evil” which has clearly been misquoted. It should read as follows: 1 Timothy 6:10 “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some, by longing for it, have strayed from the belief, and pierced themselves through with many pains.” It clearly says the LOVE OF money is the problem, not money itself.

From looking at the all the different denominations is not hard to not want anything to do with God, effectively you share the same view as those who follow God whole-heartedly and hate seeing denominations. In order to understand any religion one needs to know it’s origin and purpose, then read the book from front to back (not possible with the Quran because it lacks a storyline besides the recurring “kill the Jews” theme). Shamefully the Bible is the most bought book, yet least read.

You are also very right in saying that religion stems from control freaks, take Constantine’s Catholic Church for example. Constantine was a Mithras sun worshiper whose reign and power was threatened by the Christian movement. He knew he could not win through fighting so created a blend of the two, that’s why Catholicism is so enshrouded in sun symbols and pagan festivals such as Christmas and Easter. Any decent God-fearing Christian shuns those festivals and openly professes against them. Nazism was Hitler’s religion. Strangely enough, Mein Kampf and the Quran share strikingly similarity, especially when it comes to their hate for Jews.

I will not say anything about the Quranic mud-sun, ants and bats, but I will say something about the meek. Once again Man says only the strong survive and laugh at Matthew 5:5 which says, “Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.” A misinterpretation will obviously occur if not read in context and by understanding the Bible’s origin and purpose. It simply states that if a person is patient, humble and gentle they will inherit the earth. In context it talks about “His” people and not about people in general. Reading in context Yahshua (Jesus) reveals that He is not talking about inheriting it now but when He comes again. When he comes again He will bless the people who follow Him, not that He does not want to bless everybody but that there are many people, nearly all of Man, who do not want to know Him and choose rather a life filled with temporary pleasures. Such as these He will not bless because they chose not to be. But you did say “to this point in time” so somewhere in you is the belief that it might just occur.

Yes according to the earth-flat scenario there have been many different interpretations throughout the times but there is always one conclusion, God exists.

Isaiah 40:22 “He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.” The word circle could mean the ball of the earth or the flat circle maps of the earth they had back then. Either is true but the probable intention was a dome-like description.

Job 22:12-14 “Is not Eloah in the height of heaven? And see the highest stars, how lofty they are! And you have said, ‘What does El know? Would He judge through the dark cloud? Clouds screen Him, so that He does not see, and He moves about the circuit of the heavens.’” Job 38:33 “Do you know the laws of the heavens? Or do you set their rule over the earth?” The first passage mentions that the universe moves and the stars all have their circuits to follow. Then together with the second it clearly states the heavens control the earth, not that everything revolves around the earth.

Now this is strange, all the best scientists believed in the Jewish-Christian God (Yahweh), here is a list of some of them: Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543), Johannes Kepler (1571-1630), Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), Rene Descartes (1596-1650), Isaac Newton (1642-1727) In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being.” Robert Boyle (1791-1867), Michael Faraday (1791-1867), Gregor Mendel (1822-1884), Kelvin (William Thomson) (1824-1907), Max Planck (1858-1947), Albert Einstein (1879-1955), etc.

Then the “greatest” scientist of all: "Not one change of species into another is on record ... we cannot prove that a single species has been changed." (Charles Darwin, My Life & Letters).
Topic Re: You People 
Author Jackie 
Date Created 08/08/2005 05:15:25 
Message F, i notice that you are quite happy to quote passages fronm the bible, yet, you decry other peoples religious books. What is your rationale for believing the bible is correct and everyone else`s creed is wrong?
As for your quoting of Scientists who are believers, so what? Because they are Scientists and clever people, what makes you think that they add weight to your argument? Did you know that 90% of people in US jails profess belief in a deity and only 10% say they are atheists? Does this mean that I should immediately believe god botherers are more inclined to crime than atheists?
As for Albert Einstein, what about these quotes -

Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."

"I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

-Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist

or Abraham Lincoln -
Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

- Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).

As for the statement made by Darwin, well, back then, the "Theory of Evolution" was brand new and just that, a theory. Now, we have the proof that Darwin had theorised about. I will quite happily quote you chapter and verse the Scientists and their proofs, if you would like.
As for gallileo and Copernicus, well, we know that the church cheered them on when they had the temerity to suggest that maybe the Earth wasn`t the centre of the Universe. Did you also know that until the "Council of Nicea"
I will reply further as I`m having computer troubles and want to make sure I don`t loose this prior to posting.
Topic Re: You People 
Author Jackie 
Date Created 08/08/2005 05:45:31 
Message As for the Council of Nicaea, I`m REALLY glad you raised that! Do you know why it was called? In it`s essence, it was to determine the veracity of the "god head" and to get all the clerics going in the one direction, not with proof you understand, just to be "press ganged" into agreement. There were many god botherers who didn`t make it home to their particular sees. Also, it was where they made christ official church canon! In other words, he was made a true, historical figure! Again, not with proof, with bullying, mind you, that is the normal chuch way, so, no surprise there! All Constantine wanted was a divine "Get OUT of Gaol Free Card". He was a cynical man worried for his immoratal soul,HA! It is a pity that there isn`t a hell in the case of bas..rds like him, hitler, stalin, kramer, sprenger and pol pot.They just get oblivion like the rest of us.
You are correct in one respect, belief in a god has remained constant.I believe we are wired to believe. Just like when we are scared the hairs on the back of stand up,as a throw back to when we had to watch for something to eat us. We need the warmth and comfort of a benevolent, all seeing carer who will look after us. If that makes you happy, thats great, however, it`s not rational when observed objectively. The point I was trying to make when I gave the example of the flat earth was that just because we don`t know how something works now, doesn`t mean that we should ascribe magic to the cause. In a hundred years we may know how the "cosmic egg" formed.
I assume, please correct me if I`m wrong, that you are of the protestant or baptist point of view on christianity? If so, why do you think your version is more valid than the catholic version. Further than the mormons, seventh day adventists,etc? Objectively, your point of view is as valid, or not, as theirs. As old as the belief in christ maybe, the ancient Egyptian`s believed for a much longer time in their Pantheon. So, what will the popular view of religion be in a Thousand years? Like all fairy stories, it will evolve and move on.
You seem very keen on quotes, here are a few of my favourites -

Galileo Galilei

"They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit."

-Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer

George Bernard Shaw

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

James Madison, American president and political theorist (1751-1836).
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, Famous Atheist & Quotessuperstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

Topic Re: You People 
Author MaureenDavies 
Date Created 10/08/2005 09:39:04 
Message Jackie: I do agree with quite alot of what you say, for example the beginnings of certain religions and the power hungry. Overall though we have different perspectives on religion. Re the different factions of christianity, - it does not matter which faction we belong to, so long as there is a belief. I think the crucial point is whether one has belief or not, and not about which church we attend.
It can never be proved that there is a God or that there is not, so it is entirely a matter of belief.
For me, a belief in God is more credible than a belief in science. Consider how views on science are constantly changing. Consider now that the post-modernists are questioning on whether science is objective at all. Experiment, statistics and observation are always open to interpretation. God is the only thing in the universe and entire cosmos that is unchanging, unlike science.
Having studied the major religions, I find christianity to be the best, ie. it has the edge on all others. Islam does not act on which it preaches,(I could write a book on that).
Hinduism has the false gods and idols Buddhism does not acknowlede God. Confucionism etc., also have aspets which I find difficult. Regardless of what we all believe, there is one God over us all, and that is what counts most.  
Topic Re: You People 
Author Jackie 
Date Created 11/08/2005 06:09:46 
Message A god Maureen, a god.
Remember it was baal,osiris,isis,etc. prior to yahweh and jesus.
No, as I`ve said before, just because we don`t at this time know how the Universe came into being, doesn`t mean that we`ll never know. To say the Universe came into being because of magic is a cop out.It is the excuse of primitives who didn`t have the technology to realise that the Sun didn`t disappear because some super man was upset with them.
Recommended reading for you Maureen, "christianity, an Ancient Egyptian religion" by Ahmed Osman. The people who were deciphering the heiroglyphs in Egypt were saying to one another "Hang on, where have we seen this before?" In the bible! Maureen The trinity(Horus, Osiris and Isis), the "god sacrifice", it`s all there. It is the arrogance of people who think there version of the "great scam" is any more valid than the ancient Babylonians, the Egyptians or the Mayans for that matter. What about hindus? You want parallels to christianity, have a look at the stories involving arjuna. I`ve said before, everyone can`t be right. You can`t say we all worship the one god because to moslems at least, jc was a prophet, not the sun of god and the jews are still waiting for "it" to appear. So lets not have this trite rubbish that we all worship the one god.
No, my original reason for getting involved on this site was to try and say that an Education system should not be based on Fairy Stories. If people think that appealing to the eather fulfills some inner need, thats fine. I just want children to have the opportunity to experience freedom and free thought especially in the formative years of their early childhood.  
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